Lucas and Coop talk Chainsaw Man with the popularity of the Reze Arc film's release.
Disclaimer:The views and opinions expressed by the participants in this chatlog are not the views of Anime News Network. Spoiler Warning for discussion of the series ahead.
Coop
Lucas, it looks like we've got another anime blockbuster on our hands with Chainsaw Man – The Movie: Reze Arc blowing expectations out of the water during its first weekend in U.S. theaters. As of this writing, we don't have exact box office numbers for the film's second weekend, but I have a feeling it's performed well, based on the feedback I've heard from fans and critics alike. Speaking of that chatter, it seems like some may even prefer Reze Arc's style to the Chainsaw Man television series. Oh boy, that's a column topic and a half already.
Lucas
The Chainsaw Man movie is definitely da bomb rather than a box office bomb! In fact, this movie's success is already causing some pundits to speculate on the ripples it might have across the anime industry.
As an anime pundit who's been a fierce proponent of the Chainsaw Man manga and staunch critic of the anime, I couldn't be more eager to add my two cents to this discourse! What dimension of this development should we tackle first, Coop?
Let's start with the Chainsaw Man television series, because I feel that Reze Arc is a direct response to it—beyond just adapting the next arc of the manga. And for transparency's sake, the film hasn't screened in my neck of the woods, so I'm mainly going off the temperature of this conversation. However, I've just yanked the rip cord on a proper revisit of the series, so keep that in mind.
I'll admit, Lucas... I, too, was incredibly critical of the anime series as it aired. I dropped it for other titles that season. On first encounter, Chainsaw Man came off as way too polished in comparison to the endearingly "rough around the edges" style of Tatsuki Fujimoto's illustrations. It wasn't until I sat down to watch Look Back last year that I fully realized that the sketchy yet refined qualities of Fujimoto's line work are actually what I missed from Chainsaw Man's anime. But when sitting back down with the series for the first time in a few years, I realized I might've been a little too precious about those qualities. Because, as thematically explored in Chainsaw Man Part 2, this anime isn't just Fujimoto's baby.
Ryu Nakamura and his team at MAPPA were just as instrumental to this adaptation as the creator himself. They set out to create a work that could stand alongside the manga as its own bloody beast. As a fan, I completely understand the desire for an adaptation to be fully faithful to the original work. However, I realize that exploring those themes through a different framing gives me a lot more to think about as a viewer...and is probably more satisfying as a creative. I'd personally describe the manga as a black comedy with an ever-present dread hanging over the reader's head, but the anime adjusts the story's perspective for a more grounded take on the proceedings. Again, I appreciate how it offers me two cakes with similar recipes but different flavors to consider. It's wild to me that I've come around on the series, because I definitely didn't feel that way as it aired.
Coop, you are far more even-tempered and cordial when it comes to this given topic than I am. Though I will readily admit that the Chainsaw Man anime deserves to exist, it clearly had a lot of passion and skill poured into it, and anyone who is harassing the director or petitioning for the first season to be re-animated is wasting their time and should get a life.
That being said, I hate the Chainsaw Man anime! And I've hated it since the first episode, where it entirely gives up on trying to convey the visual and thematic spectacle of Denji transforming into Chainsaw Man for the first time. In the manga, this scene depicts Denji literally rising above the forces that were oppressing him through the power of incredible violence, allowing him to escape the darkness he had been living in. Fujimoto's artwork and paneling perfectly convey this feeling, with Denji physically above those who have been harming him, and him being the only white spot in an otherwise black background. The anime instead adapts this moment into a very dull, if gore-heavy, fight.
Presumably, the politics of this being a MAPPA production also hinder the original text's politics. This is a silly example, but in the manga, Denji specifically mentions how his new, evidently union, job provides him with basic quality of life elements that he's ecstatic about, while the anime has him simply humming in the bath. If unions cannot even be mentioned as a joke in the CSM anime, I do not trust any iteration of this work to deliver on the harsh social critique that plays a significant role in my love of the original manga.
While I understand that the production team wanted to give the anime more "heroic" visuals to align with the theatrical inspirations behind the series, why did they make Denji look shredded? Firstly, he's very intentionally supposed to be a borderline emaciated little freak, and second, this artistic direction really pulls away from the unique, sicko-mode visuals that made the manga stand out originally.
I know that all of my frustrations with the CSM anime stem from the fact that the Chainsaw Man manga is likely one of the best comics ever made and that Fujimoto has a unique mastery of the form that makes it difficult to translate to a medium like anime; but I can't help but feel like MAPPA's attempt at an adaptation made it more palatable for a wider audience rather than highlight what made the work mean so much to so many in the first place.
Given all the artistic shifts made for the anime series, I totally understand where you're coming from. After all, Fujimoto is one of the best to ever do it. Hearing about your quibbles with the series makes me appreciate all the more that the manga is its own separate entity—one that can react more dynamically to the world around it than an anime production. You've also furthered my admiration of how many elements of Part 2 are direct responses to the anime itself. I'd liken Fujimoto's experiences with Chainsaw Man to Bryan Lee O'Malley's experiences with Scott Pilgrim. Specifically, in that after Scott Pilgrim vs. The World was made, the realization that O'Malley's creation wasn't just his anymore bled into his further works like Seconds, Snotgirl, and Scott Pilgrim Takes Off. I see a similar path in Fujimoto's works following the anime's debut.
But more importantly, I'm glad you've broken the seal on MAPPA, because that is my biggest hesitancy around this adaptation from top to bottom. Between the Jujutsu Kaisen production implosion and a fire hose of allegations surrounding the studio, seeing its name attached is enough to make my heart drop on any production—even the fantastic Zenshu from earlier in the year. I'd also be lying if I said that trepidation didn't turn into anger after speaking with the fine folks from Animator Supporters earlier this year.
My only pushback to your point is that I don't think part two of Chainsaw Man is commenting much on the anime and that the plot points that focus on Chainsaw Man now being a public figure instead stem from the popularity of the manga, which Fujimoto was already starting to explore in Just Listen to the Song.
But to your broader point, I agree that MAPPA does not seem like a great steward of this industry, nor Chainsaw Man as a franchise. Though, and perhaps paradoxically, there are a lot of really talented people at MAPPA who can create excellent works of animation, like Zenshu, when given the freedom. Hell, I'll even say that the third ED to Chainsaw Man, "Blade Length: 200 Million Centimeters" by Maximum the Hormone, is to this day the greatest compact pitch for the series and a great encapsulation of what makes Chainsaw Man amazing.
As for Chainsaw Man – The Movie: Reze Arc, I'm glad it's doing well internationally and pray that a greater amount of this revenue will end up in the hands of the people who painstakingly slaved over this incredibly lavish movie; but I don't think this film will be a catalyst for an industry shake up.
I'm right there with you, Lucas. But to follow up on your point about MAPPA's talent before moving on, we're yet again in another situation where the problems are coming from the top down. It's not too far off from our chatter about the recent Crunchyroll subs situation, actually.
I got a less-than-savory impression from this statement by MAPPA President Manabu Ohtsuka in a recent ANN interview. Normally, I'd be the first to admit that anime is a product made with the intention to make money; that's just the cold, hard truth of it. But when a studio is locked in a series of alleged labor scandals and its leadership is talking about squeezing "so much more" out of an IP, it naturally raises an eyebrow or two.
And now we're getting to the friction at the core of any MAPPA-produced Chainsaw Man project. While Chainsaw Man addresses many themes, at its core, the first part of the manga is about how capitalism and capitalistic societies exploit people in vulnerable positions and alienate them to the point that they can barely connect with others in society. MAPPA, perhaps more overtly than any other studio, seeks to utilize popular IP to maximize revenue.
These mentalities are fundamentally incongruent and, for as prestigious as MAPPA's works can be, I don't think a studio like this is capable of capturing what makes Chainsaw Man work as a story.
For what it's worth, I personally felt the heart of these themes in the series while revisiting it. However, the involvement of MAPPA (specifically its management) adds an unpleasant stink to it all when you step back and take it all in.
To circle back around to the chatter that Reze Arc's success could change the industry by casting aside the production committee system... I agree with both you and Endless Mode's Elijah Gonzalez that MAPPA's decision to self-fund the film won't do any good for the industry as a whole—even if the move isn't a bad idea generally. As we've discussed, the studio's issues are seemingly all at the management level. That's not something that alternative funding will change. Moves like this absolutely depend on the specifics of the studio that is making them.
If nothing else, I think Reze Arc's success will finally quash the talking point that the supposed low DVD sales of the first season of Chainsaw Man means that it was somehow a flop. Chainsaw Man was huge before the anime and remained huge after the anime. The movie topping the box office likely has more to do with October being a slow month for movies than a signifier of any industry shifts.
That's an interesting point to consider, as Chainsaw Man is right at home in the spooky season festivities. On that note, let's talk some theater etiquette while we're here, Lucas!
While seeing the film on opening weekend, But Why Tho? EIC Kate Sánchez had one of those experiences anime fans (and well, most people, really) have become infamous for.
They are currently doing a tiktok skit in cosplay in the front i got harassed to sing kickback by a giant dude and the lights are just starting to dim - oh and someone did the opposite and yelled out how many of us could bark for her
I don't know about you, Lucas, but I don't want to pay for a pricy movie ticket only to be involuntarily drafted into some kid's Vine skit. The movie theater is not your living room or a stage to goof around on. You sit down, put your phone away, and quiet down. I have a close friend who swore off anime films for years because people wouldn't stop screaming during his screening of the first My Hero movie. Heck, I also remember this being a going concern during Promare screenings. Chicken Jockey was a mistake.
I'm still fuming about the dude who had his whole foot out in my screening of Avengers: Endgame.
There's undoubtedly a fine line between a collaborative movie-going experience with others and one that detracts.
If I can take this to a political and sociological level (as I want to do), people's poor movie etiquette is a direct consequence of COVID-19 isolation affecting many people's mental health and causing folks to forget how to participate in polite society. Factor in that a lot of anime fans already have "protagonist syndrome" and the result is a distracting amount of CSM movie-going audiences being the bad kind of rowdy.
You've nailed it. When theaters reopened after the early stages of the pandemic, I was more concerned about people being masked up and safe rather than anything else. It wasn't all that hard to get back to those established habits from there. But then again, there are probably more than a few younger viewers who never developed those habits and were thrown back into the world without them. Needless to say, the pandemic has had a profound impact on all of us.
This continues the trend of Chainsaw Man being a cultural inflection point; though this is perhaps the most meta and unintended social topic it has brought into broader discussion yet.
When we're all Chainsaw Man, who is Chainsaw Man, really?
A dog who looks like he'd have the texture of a kickball, that's who!
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